Sleep and the Brain

Season Finale. Episode 11 is full of humor as we discuss the importance of sleep and the brain.

Angie shares her fear around sleeping after her stroke and how she communicated fatigue "I feel like I have on two mink coats".

Dr. Seles discusses the link between sleep loss and poor brain health. We share tips for healthy aging and sleep hygiene. 

Finally, Brain Friends goes on the road to the Clinical Aphasiology Conference. We want to hear your feedback . Please leave us a review or a topic you want us to cover in Season 2. 

https://www.cognitiverecoverylab.com/seles

https://aphasia.org/stories/announcing-the-davetrina-seles-gadson-health-equity-grant-program/

Our beloved colleague, Dr. Davetrina Seles Gadson, passed away January 11, 2025. Dr. Gadson was an extraordinary speech-language pathologist and neuroscience researcher who devoted her energy to studying health disparities in aphasia recovery. She was a fierce advocate for improving services for individuals with aphasia, particularly Black Americans. Her research transformed our understanding of these health disparities and shed light on how we can address them. We were privileged to have Dr. Gadson as a cherished member of our lab community for four years, first as a postdoctoral fellow and then as an Instructor of Rehabilitation Medicine. She was still a close collaborator and friend to many of us at the time of her passing. Dr. Gadson was an incredible person—compassionate, inspiring, and full of life. Her dedication to advancing equity in aphasia recovery and her profound impact on our community will never be forgotten. We are committed to honoring her memory by continuing to push our field forward and fight for equitable services for all people with aphasia. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Brain Friends, where two neuronerds talk all things aphasia, language recovery, culture, and community. I am Dr. Datrina Celeste Gatson, a clinical speech language pathologist and neuroscientist.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

And I am Angie Cawthorn, stroke survivor and aphasia advocate. Welcome to our show.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to Brain Friends. We want to thank all of our listeners for downloading the podcast. We appreciate everyone listening, so please tell a friend to tell a friend that we are here. And we are. What's going on with you? Well, it's probably because I got a good night's rest last night.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Oh, and that's very, very good because that's what we're gonna be talking about today, which is why you're so smart because you probably be getting all your rest.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Oh, honey, look, now I don't play about my bedtime.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Oh, see, see, so you cut the phone off, you do the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Well, so I am a I wouldn't say that I am a light sleeper, um, but I don't disturb easily. Okay, so I really yeah, I don't really have to turn my phone off or anything like that. I'm just not gonna hear it. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Cut mine off at 11 o'clock. Like, there's nothing that we need to discuss after 11 o'clock.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Is that what time you go to bed? Is 11 o'clock?

SPEAKER_02 2:03

I have to honestly admit, I used when I first had my stroke, I did go to bed. Um, I was a little bit more conscious of, and it really wasn't me, it was my husband. He was like, You need to go to bed, you're gonna be tired. Or I was just naturally tired. But um I would go to bed. I tried to set myself a schedule to go to bed at a very specific time and get up at the same time because that would help me start a regiment. But it was really um in sleeping, I'm not a slight sleeper either. I can um, there was a point I was, but I can sleep through it all now. It don't matter. By the time my husband's up, dressed in a full tuxedo. I'm like, oh, you're you're so you weren't in the bed next to me? Okay. Who knew?

unknown 2:53

Who knew?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

I'm like, all right, well, have a good day.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yes, I'm usually give me 9, 9:30, and I'm I'm ready to lay it down. But early? Yeah. Well, so here's the thing that a lot of people don't realize, which is your brain will give you a signal when it's time to go to sleep. So oftentimes you'll start to feel tired. And what happens for most people is they'll continue to do something or they'll, you know, get up, but they don't listen to their body when your brain gives you that first signal to lay it down. And so when you don't lay it down, then your brain says, Oh, we're still up. Send more energy, send more, release more, release more. We're not ready to go to bed yet. And so that's why there's always this window to where you know your brain and your body will naturally go be tired and ready to go to sleep. But if you don't lay down, then it's going to give you more. If you don't exactly, if you don't acknowledge that, then it's going to think that it's not time to go to sleep and it needs to send more power to stay alert.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Oh my goodness. I I have to do better because my body all the time is like, And you need to, you need to shut it down. You need to go to bed. And I'm like, I'm just gonna order this off of Amazon. I'm just gonna listen, I just last night I'm on Instacart. Next thing you know, I'm on some weird uh page. I'm about to order the credit card. I'm like, oh my goodness, how'd I get to this page? So I didn't even order it, but I can't, I don't even want to talk about the stuff that comes to my door. And I'm like, oh, I must have ordered that at like three in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah. So I'm excited because that's what we're going to talk about today is aphasia and sleep and how your brain needs it.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

And how your brain needs it. It is, and I it really affected um my uh I could tell if I'm tired, my silverative speech, uh, I slur my words, my blockages become very much more pronounced. I can't tell a linear story all if I'm tired. And it affects that's the first thing that goes. Like it's like once that happens, I'm it's I've already I should have been asleep two hours ago.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

So when that does happen, do you use that as a sign to go to bed or stop talking, or do you power through?

SPEAKER_02 6:01

I power through. I'm shame. I know I need to do better. Don't look at me. I don't you look at me in that tone of voice. Don't you look at me in that tone of voice, Dr. Celeste. I see you eyeing me down. The point is, I know I shouldn't, I should go to bed when my body says I'm tired, which is actually around 10, 10:30. But I I just don't.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah. I won't well, hopefully after our discussion today, you will. And I also think it's interesting that when you said that, you kind of like looked down and hid behind your microphone, so I couldn't make eye contact with you.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

No, because I know better. I know better, but sometimes even when we know better, you know, you know you shouldn't have had that cheesesteak for lunch, but you ordered it with extra ketchup. Like, stop playing with me. Sometimes we do what is not in our best interest, even when we know better. So sometimes, uh, even with especially within your recovery, it's about making the right decisions in real time.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Right. Not to just especially in your recovery, because your brain is still healing. And when we think about benefits of sleep, sleep is when our brain stores those long-term memories and starts to filter out some of the things that you don't need. Um, so things that may have happened throughout the day that you don't really need to hold on to. And so it's during that sleep process that memory consolidation happens. So if you're not, you know, giving your brain an opportunity to really consolidate that and remove those toxins while you're resting, then that's why when you wake up in the morning, sometimes you people have experienced like brain fog or like still can't, you know, get it together.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Right. Because you're still exhausted and your brain is still asleep. Your brain is like, I'm not ready yet. And I think um it's in here again, I'm five years. Oh boy, coming up on six years post. I'm you know what I mean, and it's so I'm in a different uh space in my recovery. But in the beginning days, I was actually afraid to sleep because I was afraid I was gonna have another stroke in the middle of the night. And I realized I was not getting to rim sleep. And I actually made, if I can find that video, I'd made a video of me talking about it. And I'm like, I want to sleep. What I was trying to say is, I want to sleep, but I'm afraid if I fall asleep, um, what happens is I kept waking up as I would get into a deep sleep because it was like, oh no, you don't. I ain't even giving me no another stroke. You know what I mean? I kept waking myself up. I know, right? But that's and um, but I was exhausted.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Wait, what'd you say again?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

You ain't gonna get me no another stroke. Oh no, you don't, oh no, you don't care just out here, not sleeping, exhausted, and so it took me a while. Um and everything was just so heavy at that time. I felt like I actually I say in that video, I'm like, I feel like I have on two mink coats. And what I wanted to say was, I'm really tired, but that's all I could say is it's like two mink coats, and that was my way of saying it's really heavy, and I'm really tired, but I can't sleep because I'm afraid if I fall asleep, I'm gonna have another stroke. And uh y'all ain't catching me out here like that. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Well, because the other thing that you have to realize is that when you have sleep loss, what what's happening is that you'll tend to focus more on negative experiences and fear because it increases activity in the amygdala and decreases um activity related to judgment and decision making that occurs in our frontal lobe. And so it's not just this idea of sleep if you can, especially during recovery, and even without a brain injury, um, it's these things that really impact brain health and recovery.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

And I think the depression that kicks in um and the psychiatric uh challenges that you know are affected um if you don't get enough sleep. And again, that's with or without a stroke, but specifically if you've had a brain injury of any kind, um poor sleep is is a problem. Um, and it increases depression and anxiety and all of those things that um are making it harder to sleep. Because if I have um, or even um just the way you kind of uh the brain fog, the neural fatigue, all of these things add in to having a bad night's sleep. Because uh stroke or not, if you ain't got no, if you didn't get enough sleep, that's just a bad day. Ain't nothing worse than not feeling well and only sleeping three hours and then having to get up and go to work in the morning. Or you fall asleep, and next thing you know, the the alarm would have gone off. You've been asleep, it feels like you got 10 minutes, but it's been eight hours, and you like, okay, this is not, this ain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

That brain fog is and that fatigue and that over a considerable amount of time, as that adds in, it just gets worse. And again, it's putting more, well, let me ask you, is it putting more like uh pull on the frontal lobe? Is it like drawing more? Like, is it an additional problem?

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Well, it's it's decreasing, it's decreasing um the judgment and the decision making that occurs within the frontal lobe. And so, and that happens kind of if you think about um like a seesaw, you know. So as one thing increases that amygdala, that fear activity increases, then it can subsequently decrease other functions.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Well, well, wait a minute. Well, what is the amygdala anyway?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Mm-hmm. So the amygdala is part of the limbic system and is a neural network that mediates aspects of our emotion and our memory. And so when we think about flight or flight or fight um and fear, those emotions um are regulated or are triggered um by the amygdala.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

And that's more active after a stroke, which is why I a person with a people with strokes have uh 25% more anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Um so then imagine that on top of you not sleeping, you know, because poor. You better go to bed. You better get you ain't oh no, you don't you better get in that bed so you can decrease that amygdala activity. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Okay, and that because of the fight of flight and that emotion and that um would that have anything to do with the uh like the emotional lity? Lib I always want to say libation, but that's a drink.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Libation uh is a drink. Hey.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Okay, let's stay on track. Um, but I think those, but again, if you're not getting proper rest, it can definitely be um a problem all the way around, and it can cause more problems than just you um being sleepy in the midday. Get your naps too.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Naps are perfect. Now, let let me let me come through with something about these naps. Come on through, come on naps. Now, I I was not always a believer of naps because I think I had that mindset of your body will tell you when it's time to go to bed. So just go to bed when it's time. But I noticed sometimes that a good nap can help me not drink caffeine, uh, can really help me be clear, especially if I'm writing and I'm getting stuck. Then, you know, either a walk or a nap is perfect.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Baby, baby, yeah, a good nap. You gotta, you have to listen to your body. And especially again, I cannot stress enough in recovery, many naps as you possibly can without feeling like you just ain't doing nothing. And I get that, but you uh it's your time to do nothing but recover. You've had a brain attack. Give yourself the time, give yourself the grace to recover, and you can do that. The biggest thing that you can do for yourself is get proper sleep, uh, or as they call it, the uh your sleep hygiene.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, the this the sleep hygiene is something that is unique because sometimes I and I get on my mama about this because I'm throwing her sis. What's up, sis? Right. Sis is sis is good when it comes to taking care of physical.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

But that sleep hygiene, so let me let me talk a little bit about some of the things related to sleep hygiene. Um, they say that poor sleep is less than six hours or more than nine hours. You can oversleep. Yeah. Well, and I think the thing when we think about the over-sleeping, I think it taps into depression sometimes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

And so you don't want to be at any end of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Right. So eight hours is your sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Right, right. Now I get about eight hours. I get about seven to eight hours. I recognize for some that's too much. Now, my mom gets about three to four hours, which is not healthy to me.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Optimal at all.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

But how much do you get?

SPEAKER_02 18:14

My eight. I get my eight now that I'm um I'm home and I don't have a um a job job. Um I get a I get I get a solid eight and it took me a while to learn to relax and actually sleep because I'd been at such a high level. It was um, you know, in the car business, there's a joke, uh, if you have to work nine to nine, which you know, nine a.m. to nine p.m. Uh, you know, that's only a half a day. I know, I know. It's it's a very odd way of seeing the world. The car business is a subculture within itself. But right, that's the go running joke. Like, oh, you had to do an iron, they call it an Iron Man when you go nine to nine. And that's that used to be a standard thing. Anyway, I'm not gonna regale you with that. The point is the what also helps is uh no bright lights before bed, um, and no screen time. And I am, you know, I know we you want to play your games on your phone and watch TV, but that blue light, um, you know, I'm a big proponent of no screens in the bedroom. You know what I mean? I don't like I don't I stopped I cut the TV off when I would go to bed. I stopped doing that honestly about 30 years ago. Because I I I read something and it was just like it's just not what you really want to do. You want to fall asleep and allow your body to relax. And also what I learned is uh whatever was on TV would be what I would be dreaming about.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

I can't, I can't. So I'm dreaming about the news. No, that's not okay. That's not okay. We that's not what I need.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

And I know some people say they need the white, white noise or they need something in the background, and that's always been challenging for me when I am with those people, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

With those people, and y'all know who y'all are.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Because I'm like, or at least turn it down. Like I know I'm a guest in your house, but right.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Well, listen, I I will listen to music. I am big on music when I go to bed and it'll be on sleep and it'll cut off. If I'm at a weird hotel, uh, or or at a hotel, obviously, all I was about to say, do you go to weird hotels often? Lady, you know, but if I'm in a hotel, um, if I was traveling by myself, I would put on Sports Center and then put it on sleep. And that's the only time I think because that noise got me from listening to the other noise that would be around. My music wouldn't hold me. Wow, but at home, I can just put on my I have a specific sleep playlist. It plays the same like 15 songs, and that's just fine. And I know they're not too loud, they don't have too much bass. They're just regul they're regular old songs, but it's just very specific.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

So that's the type of things that people need to do to um ensure good sleep.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Now, what about do you have trouble falling asleep? Or when you hit the bed, when you hit the pillow, are you out?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

I think I'm I can I can fall asleep pretty good. I'm not usually up for um I now listen, nobody goes to sleep faster than Charles.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Charles is I might have him beat though, because as soon as as soon as I recline, that's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Hey, can you sleep anywhere?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Um, so I anywhere is loaded. Okay. Um I can't I can't sleep anywhere, but I think that's because of my military upbringing. I think that's where anxiety kind of comes in, is you know, not wanting to be caught slipping. Right, no, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Because what you're not gonna do again.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Oh no, you don't. Oh no, you don't. I actually would stop going to growing up. I stopped going to slumber parties, especially during like once I was in high school, I was okay because I could, you know, speak up for myself. But in the lower grades, because I was always the first one to go to sleep, and they would do like the toothpaste and like all these tricks.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Ain't nobody got time for that. No, it's a slumber party. We've partied and now it's time to slumber.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Where does the slumber start? Why are y'all still up? It is time to slumber. You know what? I'm gonna go sit with your mother because I'm gonna I'm gonna go sit with the adults because they're about to slumber. They got this rum out. I ain't got a drink because I'm eight, but they're about to get a nap, and I'm gonna do that with them, lady. Listen, I have to give a quick shout out to your moms, okay? I saw the Instagram post of her. And what is that she is doing? She is like killing it out here.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

She's so fantastic. She is uh does fitness, fitness modeling. And yes, she started during COVID, which just is a thing to show, you know, she had always wanted to do it, and you know, thought with her age and all of these things that it wouldn't be appropriate. And then COVID happened, and she just, you know, got excited and realized that life was too short. And so she's been doing it now for uh about two years, and you know, and you see, I stand behind her in a lot of those pictures.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Listen, listen, like that's my mama. I know she is looking phenomenal. And when I saw the picture, and you're like, that's my mom on the caption, I'm like, okay, that's just her girlfriend. She calls her mom, and then I'm like, Oh, okay, that's her mother, and she is looking quite fit, quite strong. And this is why she's only getting four hours of sleep because she's got to get to the gym in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

She's at the gym at like four. Like I spoke with her today, and she said, I was at the gym from four to seven. What? So when I'm a usually with her, I I mean, I'm look the way my ministry set up, you know, I I can't do no. I could, but you know, I'm on catch you when my body wakes up after the eight hours and and get in the gym.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Right. I'll meet you at brunch. Can we how about there's mimosas at 10? Can we can we talk about these mimosas?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Right. So she's going to bed around 11, and then she's up around three, so she could be at the gym by four.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

So I so opening up the place.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

It literally lady. Lady and don't let the gym people oversleep because don't let them be late.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Ronnie is late. She's writing a a well-worded letter to somebody about this is the third time this week, y'all late.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Honey, posting it on Facebook and tagging, tagging the company, getting people fired, people getting written up.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Come on, moms. Come on, sis. And that's why I ain't calling her mom Duke some more. She's sis. The way she's working it out, I can't. She is, I'm I'm not worthy. Obviously, I'm not getting up early enough because I'm not looking that fit.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

So shout out to her.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Shout out to mom. And mom, work on your sleep hygiene.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yeah, mom, do better.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

AG said so.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

I'm saying so. Come on now. Your daughter is a neuroscientist, and she knows, I'm sure she's mentioned it on more than one occasion. On right, because she's watching you not go to bed at 9:30.

unknown 26:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

As she's already slim, as she as she's getting ready with her bonnet.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Cut your bonnet.

unknown 26:44

What?

SPEAKER_01 26:46

I sometimes, if she calls me around nine o'clock, then you know I'll send her texts because nine o'clock is time for me to wind down. I can't have long conversations at that time. Right. So I send her a text and say you should be in bed. It's an emergency. If not, then we'll talk in the morning. Because you need to be getting in bed, love bug. Talk to you tomorrow, love bug. Okay. The last thing before we get out of here, I wanted to share foods that also help with sleep. Um, so they say warm milk, camel mil, peppermint, any anything else that you you drink before you go to bed.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Brown liquor.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Okay. That that um that or a glass of red wine.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Or ginger brandy.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Ginger brandy. Ginger brandy. Now you have to put me on.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

I will. I will.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Because oh we're gonna what what you gonna ask me? You could go ahead and ask. Who about them CAC streets? We will be in the CAC streets together.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

You got your thing approved.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

You got your paper. So if anyone's attending the clinical apasiology conference, I will be hosting a round table on patient reported outcomes. Is it about the difference?

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yes, and I am the keynote respondent.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

At CAC, I am so hyped and a little bit of anxiety kicking in, but um because I'm oh my god, and you will be. I listen.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

So after our scholarship, we can go try that ginger brandy.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

I will don't listen. I lady, I will have a bottle with me.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Now the other foods, the foods that can help you sleep are peanut butter, nuts, banana, all of the crackers.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Bananas.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah. I actually saw this recipe. I haven't tried it, but it was a banana nut bananas on cinnamon toast.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

That sounds delicious.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Right?

SPEAKER_00 29:18

That sounds really good.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Now, I usually try not to eat too close before just because you know my body doesn't really it doesn't appreciate it. But if you're thinking about things to help you sleep, whether it's food or or drinks, you know, try different things so you can go to bed.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Absolutely. And again, get your rest. Get your rest if you're in recovery or no, get your rest because that's brain health is key. And it don't matter if you had a stroke or not.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Alrighty. Thanks so much. I'm so excited to talk about this with you today, and good night. Y'all go to bed now. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Gabberound.

unknown 30:33

Gab around.