Brain Friends

From Jordan River Baptism to Emergency Evacuation: Dr Seles's Unexpected Journey

• Dr. D. Seles Gadson and Angie Cauthorn • Season 3 • Episode 2

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Dr. Seles shares her harrowing experience of being in Israel when war broke out in October, capturing both the fear of the situation and the remarkable perspective it gave her on American privilege.

• Dr. Seles traveled to Israel with a church group of 60 people including her mother
• She was baptized in the Jordan River by her childhood pastor who had originally baptized her 20+ years ago
• Plans changed suddenly when they were redirected to Jerusalem due to a "developing situation"
• They witnessed smoke in the distance as conflict began to escalate
• The group had to evacuate to Jordan as airports closed and the situation worsened
• Dr. Seles faced challenging experiences at border crossings related to her identity as a Black American woman
• She and her mother (Ma Dukes) were separated onto different flights home due to limited evacuation options
• The flight home was delayed due to airspace safety concerns, creating additional anxiety
• The experience highlighted American passport privilege and the complex dynamics of race, gender, and religion in the region

Stroke survivors may experience intensified seasonal depression and anxiety. Dr. Seles and Angie discuss how symptoms like winter blues that might have been a "five" before stroke can increase to a "seven" afterward, requiring additional management strategies.


www.aphasiaadvocates.com for Brain Friends Merch

https://www.cognitiverecoverylab.com/seles

https://aphasia.org/stories/announcing-the-davetrina-seles-gadson-health-equity-grant-program/

Our beloved colleague, Dr. Davetrina Seles Gadson, passed away January 11, 2025. Dr. Gadson was an extraordinary speech-language pathologist and neuroscience researcher who devoted her energy to studying health disparities in aphasia recovery. She was a fierce advocate for improving services for individuals with aphasia, particularly Black Americans. Her research transformed our understanding of these health disparities and shed light on how we can address them. We were privileged to have Dr. Gadson as a cherished member of our lab community for four years, first as a postdoctoral fellow and then as an Instructor of Rehabilitation Medicine. She was still a close collaborator and friend to many of us at the time of her passing. Dr. Gadson was an incredible person—compassionate, inspiring, and full of life. Her dedication to advancing equity in aphasia recovery and her profound impact on our community will never be forgotten. We are committed to honoring her memory by continuing to push our field forward and fight for equitable services for all people with aphasia.

Speaker 1:

Hey, brain friends, today we got a great show for you, though it doesn't dive into our usual subjects of stroke, aphasia and brain health. It is a wonderful conversation with Dr Celeste that we captured when she returned from Israel. She and her church was like a group of 60. And, of course, my dudes. They were all there when a war broke out and the borders in the airports were being closed. They had a time. So Dr Celeste shares that experience with us and we decided to tape it and not really knowing if we were going to use it or drop it as an episode, but we decided Well, actually I'm not going to hold y'all. I was like, listen, I need you to really share what happened. And she was like, listen, celeste, I'll take that free therapy session. I'm so with it. No, but we sat and we chatted about what had happened, what she had seen, how it felt, and it was a great, great episode. And, like I said, I wasn't sure if we were going to ever drop it. But, um, we, I'm glad we taped it. So I'm gonna go ahead and share that with you guys.

Speaker 1:

Now this is also may, which is stroke awareness month, and it's also gemini season. It's all season. I'm celebrating because this marks her birthday. She was a gemini, she was born in 82. And she loved to celebrate her birthday. She was about her birthday, she was about that life. So, um, she's forever in our thoughts and our prayers and in my heart. So this episode is really just a way of sharing her light and her laughter. It's also on YouTube in full video form so you can see, you can just see us busting it up, just enjoying each other's company and her telling this tale, and you can just hear.

Speaker 1:

Just listen y'all. Y'all about to get to it. I'm about to get y'all to it. Also, it's your kindness and encouragement that we've built this incredible community and to keep the show going and growing, I'm currently looking for sponsors who want to partner with Brain Friends the podcast. So I am thrilled to announce Also oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:

In addition, I just opened a Brain Friend store on Shopify. We got some fantastic merchandise ready for you, so go check that out. We got hoodies, you know. You got the Brain Friend t-shirts and hats. It's real nice, so go check that out. Got an apron for my cooks. You know how we do, so check that out. We're pride and treat yourself, treat yourself.

Speaker 1:

So settle in for this episode of Brain Friends, raise a glass for your girl and here's. So let me stop. Let me say what I want to say clearly Again. I appreciate each and every one of you guys really just hanging and rocking with me. Um, again, we have some great merchandise for you. So please go to the store, check that out. It's at cawthornemyshopifycom or you can go to aphasia advocatescom. I am not spelling either one of those things for you. Okay, yeah, uh. So yeah, aphasia advocatescom or Cawthorn dot my Shopifycom. It'll get you there. And, um, if you use the code celeste for unlimited time, you will get 10 off of your thing is over a hundred dollars. So, yeah, that's for a limited time. So, anyway, yeah, so, oh, yo, I am just chatting. So listen, settle in. This episode of Brain Friends is going to be great. So I'm about to raise this glass and say here's to you, dr Celeste we love you and we miss you, and may the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God Rest in peace. Amen.

Speaker 2:

Let's get it.

Speaker 3:

All right now. Welcome to Brain Friends, where two neuro nerds talk all things aphasia, language recovery, culture and community. I am Dr DeTrina Celeste Gatson, a clinical speech-language pathologist and neuroscientist, and I am Angie.

Speaker 1:

Cawthorn stroke survivor and aphasia advocate. Welcome to our show.

Speaker 3:

Welcome to Brain Friends. We want to thank all of our listeners for downloading the podcast. We appreciate everyone listening, so please tell a friend. To tell a friend that we are here and we are okay, angie, how are you feeling?

Speaker 1:

what is going on with you? It is all about you. Welcome home, welcome back. It is a blessing to see you. Thank you, I got too much sunshine coming in on me there we go. Sunshine on you Ain't too much. It ain't never going to be too much sunshine, honey because you the light. Okay, come on, god, bring this light on me, shine on me, lord.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I receive all of that. I do, you know. I realized that my brain situation with sunlight, my relationship with cloudy days and sunny days, I didn't realize how much I I, I mean, I know we require the sun is humans, but like I be needing the sun I'll be sure the days are not for me. I'm more more of a. I'm more of a Southern girl. I need that. I need that. I need sunlight till 7. This 4 PM is not for me.

Speaker 3:

So do you feel like that increased after your stroke or?

Speaker 1:

I think it may. I think my, because my depression and anxiety increase. Therefore the feeling of downness which is normal, you know, in the winter winter blues. It has a name for a reason, right, okay, but I do think it is more when I have this since the stroke it is more is I think, I know it is. It definitely affects me more than it did prior. Yeah, the not having the sun, the not having the sun. I am in need of sunlight, and look at that sun coming back in here. Okay, come on, son.

Speaker 2:

You better manifest it.

Speaker 1:

Yes, oh my gosh, but I mean we all have that. You know, uh, what they um clinical weather, there's a word for it. It's more than winter blues but it's like clinical or weather depression anyway, yeah, but it's definitely if it would have been at a five before. It was at a seven since the stroke oh wow, that would be everything. Whatever it was, it's up two or three. Okay, like I used to be able to control my anxiety.

Speaker 3:

Well, now it's a seven it's only seven at all times, unless I medicate sounds like we might need to do another mental health episode.

Speaker 1:

Listen I still ain't got no black therapist, so I don't want to call you out. But the reason I called you originally yeah, yeah, do the face Because the first time I called you, if you recall, before we done made a podcast, got listeners worldwide, Right worldwide, and you still don't have no therapist Podcast got listeners worldwide.

Speaker 3:

Right Worldwide, angie still don't have no therapy. Okay, so I got to. So one if you're in the Philly Jersey area, licensed in that area Angie is open to therapy. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

I don't even know now. I don't know Should I?

Speaker 3:

Well, honey, I'm back in therapy so. I am a therapy advocate. I think that it's so important to have someone that can help you organize your thoughts.

Speaker 1:

I've never participated but I want to like, if I found, if I thought I found the right mix to, to give me that where I feel comfortable scene.

Speaker 3:

So okay, so we got to make sure, we, I have to make sure that I follow up on that, because, yeah, you did say do I know a therapist? And I was like I don't know a therapist, but, um, I was thinking about a podcast. Can we record our conversations?

Speaker 1:

right, I don't know nothing what you're talking about, but here I'm thinking oh, that is too much, so listen. Um well, first of all, let me just say this I'm spinning this around welcome home, thank you. Tell me about your, first of all. You went to uh, gaza and you were there when things started to just start popping off in October. You were there.

Speaker 3:

Right, right. Well, I went to Israel and while I was there, the war started, oh my goodness, and so I. We had just got to, we had spent some time in the Sea of Galilee, and then I got baptized in the Jordan River, which was such an amazing experience because it was with my childhood pastor, who originally baptized me over 20 years ago. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1:

Right. Shout out to pastor. Give your pastor a shout out.

Speaker 3:

Yes, reverend Clarence Moore, you had good old Baptist tub that they dip you down. Yes, right.

Speaker 1:

That's a full ocean spray plunge.

Speaker 3:

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 1:

And in the Jordan.

Speaker 3:

River, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

In the Jordan River it was even more beautiful and nobody cares about your hair. We going in.

Speaker 3:

We going in Nobody cares about your hair, we going in, we going in, we going down. Um, so we did that. And then afterwards we were supposed to head to Jericho and we got word uh, as they put it, a developing situation, we have a developing situation. So they were like we're taking you guys straight to Jerusalem, we're not going to Jericho. And as we were driving to Jerusalem, we saw smoke in the distance. And you know, you don't really for me, I mean now that I'm back home and I understand everything that was happening but there you saw smoke and you thought, hmm, there's smoke in the distance, but you don't think that's, you know the war that's starting, or a bomb or anything like that. And I remember our bus driver driving really, really fast, like just this sense of urgency among all of the leaders, the locals, the locals.

Speaker 1:

That's what I wanted to know. How was your guide, what? How was his demeanor and how did it change from the time you got there, when everything was okay, versus by the time it was like, yeah, we can't go there, we have to go east or we have to go west? They had to keep keeping you west, east, right, right, because the West Bank is where it was about to go really bad, so they had to keep bringing you east. Your itinerary that you paid for it said take me west. Exactly, y'all didn't really know what was going on, right, right, they have a developing story, or developing situation, right, right.

Speaker 3:

So they were overall very calm throughout it. I mean, for me, sometimes, just because I watched body language, I could see that it went from like sometimes, when we were at certain places before everything had started, that they were like okay, let's go, let's go to where after everything started. They were trying to keep us in certain what? Now I would probably consider safe areas longer, but I think the guides were absolutely amazing in the sense of we continue to tour even while everything was going on, to tour even while everything was going on, but some of the places obviously we weren't able to go to because of the war. So after a while we got. Once we realized, well, actually, once Israel declared war, we realized, okay, well, well, it's time to go right my name Bennett and I ain't in it right, right.

Speaker 1:

It's time to go home, so we but some people didn't want to go, y'all can keep that coat and that's in that luggage. I'm just gonna take this passport and get on home now if I can take the coat. That be nice, but I don't need this coat. I'll give me another coat when I get home.

Speaker 3:

Right, right, right, yeah. So you know, it was interesting how the tour guys had a little bit more like okay, let us keep them safe, Let us move here, move there. I could tell they were very strategic. I could tell that they huddled a lot more and talked. But the hotel people that was an interesting space because I think the hotel people were more like you know, it's war, what are you going to do, Right, which for us it was a little different because we were like I ain't used to that, Right.

Speaker 1:

So you're telling Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have a question, like oh, I ain't used to that, right, so you're telling whoa, whoa, whoa. I have a question. So are you telling me the hotel staff was going on about their day as if there was not a bomb going on or off like a mile down the road?

Speaker 3:

Well, so, in good news, I didn't hear any bombs going off once we got to Jerusalem. So the only time we saw fire and again, I didn't hear any, we just saw smoke was in route from the Sea of Galilee area to Jerusalem. So, over to the far side was the West Bank and you could see so in that area. But I mean again, I didn't know. That's the West Bank, that's Jericho. Like I didn't know that, I just noticed, oh, there's smoke over there, that's a lot of smoke.

Speaker 1:

How were the roads and the stores and the people there?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, everyone, literally, you know. I think the part that was really interesting is that, even though I felt safe the entire time, it was a matter of the normalcy, like how normal this situation was kind of for the people. So for the people in Israel at least, it was just Tuesday.

Speaker 3:

Exactly. But you could also tell because, like where I was, we saw Palestine flags as well. So you could really see that this was a situation that had a lot of people divided, obviously, like it does still now, but also that this was a way of somewhat life. And so after we realized, well, after the airport started closing, tel Aviv, where we had flew in, closed down and the situation got worse, we evacuated to Jordan, which I would say that that was the only time that I started to feel scared. And I think it was a couple of things.

Speaker 3:

Well, one, you know, it was a two hour drive to two hour drive to the, to the border of Jordan, and then we waited three hours on the bus, because that's how long the line was to get into Jordan, with a whole bunch of other groups trying to cross the border. So we waited three hours to get into Jordan and then another two and a half hours two and a half, three hours to be processed, and then, five hours after we got processed and all of that stuff, they closed the Jordan border down. How many people were on the trip with you? Oh, 60.

Speaker 1:

Wow, and you flew in separate, like you. You were with the group, but you weren't traveling on their charter.

Speaker 3:

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 3:

So the group flew from, the most of the group flew from Atlanta and I flew out of DC, and so that was also a really hard part.

Speaker 3:

So I went on the trip with my mom and, oh wow, Sometimes it still gets me a little emotional but we had to separate because they couldn't get that group of 60 out all in the one charter and so they ended up having to start breaking up that group, which was like OK, eight people can get on this flight, ten people can get on this flight. You know I had offered to even fly back to atlanta if that was easier, just to not leave my mom. But because I was flying out, flying back to dc, it was easier for me to get on a flight to dc. And you know it came the decision of do I go and just you know body on the plane, get out of here, get on a flight, or do I stay? So then I can fly out and make sure my mom gets out. But the concern with that was that if I stayed and then she got out because she was going to Atlanta and something happened to the DC flight, then I would be there by myself.

Speaker 1:

Then you're stuck with nobody and she's at least with the group that she came with, exactly right. Oh my god, that is heart-wrenching. And mom is thinking get on the.

Speaker 3:

She's like get on the plane yeah, she's like I don't know what you think you're doing.

Speaker 1:

You're getting on the plane right, she don't want to hear nothing. Mom is not having it right. First of all, she was already up doing push-ups. Okay, mom was like it's leg day. First of all, it's still leg day, how?

Speaker 3:

about that right. So that was the hardest part, I think, for me was being in a space to where one we had to separate, and then also with the crossing over to jordan. That was the first time. Know, here I'm used to the racism like I'm used, but you know I'm used to my U S type of racism.

Speaker 1:

Right, it's a certain flavor. It's like there you go. It's like down South racism versus up North racism or out West it's it is different. But now you're out of the country racism and how was that?

Speaker 3:

That was. I would say that that was the time that I got scared, and I think it was because one of the things that I'm not used to is the whole gender piece. So now I'm a woman and you know they're speaking to me very like get away from here, shooing me. But then there's also this piece of the point that you're Black that you know. So, for an example, you know we were there, like I said, we were waiting like three hours.

Speaker 3:

It took us about three hours to get processed, and so there was this group of white travelers that were all sitting in this area and then their group got called up to be processed, and so then my group went over to sit in the area that they were and all of the police people came and they were like no, no, no, you can't sit there, you can't sit there. And I had to stop my mom because she was like but were just like mama, look, we're not about to argue with these people. If they say they don't want us to sit here, you better pull up your luggage and sit on your luggage. You can't sit on a bench it's like listen, we not.

Speaker 1:

This is not the time, mom. She like well, they were just mom right, which is why you ain't want to leave her side either. Exactly, he's giving them, first of all, what we're not going to do and you're like, yes, they will, because we're not home. Mom Right, you don't get one phone call, you don't have no standard civil rights.

Speaker 3:

That's. The other thing is like when you're in these other countries, you don't know what those, what those rules are, you know, like even for the passport. Like they didn't give, they wouldn't give you your passport back. Like they gave it to a man in our group and then the man distributed all of our passports back to us wait.

Speaker 1:

So you hand your stuff to your passport, to the general, your documents, they look it over and then they just give it to whoever the man is in the group they collect it, they kept it and then, and then, they give them all back to the man because they're in charge I mean, that's what it looks like.

Speaker 3:

Oh, wow, you know things like we were. Again, we were a group of 60 and so in our group we had one, um, italian lady traveling with us, and you know even her. Sometimes they would be like, are you sure you're with them? You're with them because she's the only you know white person in our entire group and she'd be like, yeah, I'm with them. And they're like, okay, well, you come to the front person in our entire group and she'd be like, yeah, I'm with them. And they're like, okay, well, you come to the front and they would constantly bring her. So anytime we were in a line having to go or process, and we were being processed out of one country, processed into another one, they would bring her, wherever she was, to the front of the line to lead the line.

Speaker 1:

So wait a minute. So it's like bring, yeah, you're with them, all right, fine, then we'll let them in, and but now she's. Now, does she get, um, uh, I wanted the word gravitas, but does she get like, play over the guys? If it's a black man and a white woman, who we choosing?

Speaker 3:

well. So when it came to the line pieces or who would go first with scanning and things like that, she would go first. But when it came to the whole passport thing, that was still very much male patriarchal, very patriarchal, wow.

Speaker 1:

So you were catching it on every end and you felt, and it just felt different.

Speaker 3:

Oh, it felt different. It felt like I could say I don't know what I could say. It felt like they could literally do anything and Wow, like you just be quiet, like in those situations, right, so you felt like a black person in quiet, like in those situations, right?

Speaker 1:

So you felt like a Black person in the 1930s in America. So you was on 1887 in Alabama. Yeah, you shut your mouth. You shut your mouth, exactly.

Speaker 3:

And look honey. I'm mute okay, I am mute. No, no, no, no, no, shut up, all right, zip Like I'm not, just because I don't want that smoke. I want no smoke and nobody in the country Dr.

Speaker 1:

Celeste, you gave him the Friday when he was like listen, he'd be like shut up, he'd be quiet. But when he leave, I start talking again. Dvl be like shut up, he'd be quiet, but when he leave, I start talking again. Db I'll be like shut up. I've been quiet exactly exactly he's like I'm gonna go back.

Speaker 3:

But no, I remember I was in texas when you were in gaza and, um, I was at a conference. Huh, in Israel, in Israel, I keep saying the wrong, that's okay.

Speaker 1:

And your text messages to me, because I'm watching the news from our point of view. So I'm watching American news from Texas, so I'm watching it with, obviously, the American spin on it, and I'm like this is not good. And I'm texting you and you're like, no is not good. And I'm texting you and you're like, no, everything's fine, we're okay, we're just moving along. And then, as it got worse, I could feel the desperation in your text and how it was coming off. And I'm like, oh, no, we've. And I remember sitting at breakfast with my husband and I'm like, yes, things have changed. She's not. She is not as happy and go lucky as she was yesterday. Yesterday you were like, no, you know, we're just bop, bop, bop. And look at picture of me, click, click, jesus. And then it was like, yeah, jesus, I need you to get me out of here, right?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I think the thing for me that changed was once things started closing down, like the airport started closing down and flights started getting canceled, and then once I knew that, you know, my mom and I wouldn't be able to leave at the same time, I think that that was when it was a moment of like okay, and to be honest, I don't really know that whole situation in the sense of like, I don't know how that works Like what's off limits, what's not off limits, and you know, do you just go dropping bombs everywhere, like you know are you? Are you targeting tourist people?

Speaker 1:

Are we acknowledging the UN? Is there a treaty? I don't know, and are we just who's in? I don't know, it's too much, exactly.

Speaker 3:

And then the other thing too, that was that I didn't know until being there. Is that there? There's also the religion that comes into place, and so you know you have, um, christianity is basically the lowest on the totem pole in regards to the way they view things. So I also didn't know that part. I'm Christian, I'm Black and I'm an American. Is that a good thing over here or a bad thing? How does that play? How does that play?

Speaker 3:

And so I think the, the, the last part that was just so scary was leaving. So once we, so once I finally got to Jordan, I had time to shower, eat, and then I had to be to the airport to get on a plane to head back here, because again, it was planes on. You know, bodies on planes. First flight out you can get. We need to get people out of here. And the flight was delayed for another almost two and a half hours because they were concerned about the airspace. And that was the first time that I got on the plane and you know the. I got on the plane and you know the fear wasn't the plane crashing, the fear was that the plane would be accidentally shot down.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so that was so it was a lot, but I do. I thank you for everybody's prayers.

Speaker 1:

It's not like. Well, I'll just take a ferry. There's no other way.

Speaker 2:

You have to get on this plane.

Speaker 1:

And you're like how they know I'm friend or foe and do they care if I'm friend or foe?

Speaker 2:

That's the real thing.

Speaker 1:

Do they care if they just shooting stuff down?

Speaker 3:

And so even in the whole delay thing, like you know, they were like oh, it's just delayed, it's just delayed, it's just delayed. And you know me, I'm inquisitive, excuse me, sir, why is the plane delayed and they're? And then they say we're trying to make sure the airspace is safe, so it's like okay, right, right, you know what I'm just gonna have? I'm just gonna sit down and have your version of a coca-cola.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna have your version of coca-cola, whatever that is. Oh, and it's still coke. This is wonderful. Yeah, I'm gonna sit down and have your version of a Coca-Cola. I'm going to have your version of Coca-Cola, whatever that is oh and it's still Coke. This is wonderful. I'm just going to sit down and have a spot of tea and shut my mouth Right.

Speaker 3:

So thank you so much for your prayers and everybody's prayers I'm definitely praying for just that entire situation is very it's just hurtful, you know, and it also made me realize the power that we have as believers to be able to believe what you want. And then you know the other thing that someone brought up that I'd never thought about, but just even the privilege of being an American and being able to just cross over to whatever border you know, and your passport is good, it's not on a list to where, like, you can't come in or something like that, and so it was definitely a lesson.

Speaker 3:

And I would love to go back you know, once they get it together.

Speaker 1:

When you look, you know, once they get it together. When you look at when they get it together, when you look at being an American and it changes when you go across real lines, you know we can go to Mexico or to DR. But when you really go somewhere and you realize how no, the American is not, it's pretty good over here. It's not, it's not so, it's not so shit.

Speaker 3:

Yes, my only thing was it was crazy because when I got back to the US so one of the things that I love when I get back to the US and I travel through Atlanta, they always say welcome home. And I just think that's so nice, like, yes, welcome home. And so I, you know, I came through dc.

Speaker 1:

So they were just like, all right, yeah, they got folks traveling uh international all the time through right I'm like where's my welcome home?

Speaker 3:

I miss.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad to be back home I was wondering, were you going to drop on them like listen, listen, I work for DC, I work for the federal government.

Speaker 3:

Well, I did say you know, because at one point, when we weren't sure if our travel agent was going to be able to get us out, I registered mom and myself on the State Department emergency. Yeah, you did Send help Right. Send help now send help now.

Speaker 1:

Send help now. List. Right, I work for y'all. I'm so down, oh my gosh. So that's how we doing it, huh, alright, well, what we'll do is we'll wrap it up, okay, you ready for it?

Speaker 3:

should I stop this to separate it? We hope you enjoyed this episode of Brain Friends. Please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite streaming platform. Also, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

Speaker 1:

Brain Friends the podcast I'm so extra. Subscribe to our YouTube channel Brain Friends the podcast I'm so extra.

Speaker 2:

Thank you Bye.